And its about time too dammit! What a bunch of goobers the EU members have become on the topic of Turkey joining their club. Turkey has been a staunch ally of ‘the West’ since WWII, was one of the original inductees into NATO over 50 years ago, and has been petitioning to join the EU for over 40 years! 40 damn years? Yep, for 40 damn years the Europeans have kept Turkey waiting at the alter; always a EU bridesmaid, never an EU bride. Turkey has sat on the sidelines while virtually all of Eastern Europe has joined the block, with Romania and Bulgaria being the most recent inductees last year.
What? You mean they let the down-and-out, broke-ass, former Soviet satellite states into the EU before their NATO ally Turkey? Yep. What a crock of shit.
Full-fledged entry talks for Turkey started in earnest in 2005, but as of 6 months ago the proposal was dead in the water again because the two sides could not agree on a whole host of issues, a main one being that the EU demanded Turkey open up trade with Cyprus: a long-standing hot button issue that I won’t go into right now. But the Turks seemed to have had enough of demand after demand after demand that the EU has thrown at it, year after year after decade after decade…so they stopped negotiations last year. But the game is back afoot:
EU to re-start talks with Turkey
I just wanted to talk about why this whole fiasco has happened. While EU entry has long enjoyed popular support by most Turks, the Europeans have been grinding them down, and as a result public opinion of the EU is growing more dismal by the day. Many Turks refer to the EU as the CU…which stands for the ‘Christian Union’…and the Plaid Avenger does believe that there is something to this interpretation.
Europe was the cradle of Christianity. Not the birthplace, but the cradle for its growth into a worldwide phenomenon. Europe is still a Christian dominated culture. The EU is overwhelmingly Christian. In fact, I had an excellent German historian point out the fact that the original members of the EU covered the exact same area of Europe once held by the Carolingian Empire under Charlemagne…an entity dubbed ‘The Holy Roman Empire’. He suggested that this new European group was simply falling back on its old religious roots…..hmmmmm….interesting how looking back helps you understand what’s ahead. But I digress.
Europe is Christian. Turkey is not. There are those in Europe that would argue that Turkey, being an overwhelmingly Muslim country, simply won’t ‘fit’ in well with European values and principles. The Plaid Avenger thinks that is a load of shit. But some EU members will continue to shovel it.
Turkey is a modern country for the most part. Turkey is a democracy. Turkey is in the NATO defense network. Turkey helped in small part win WWII. Turkey in greater part helped win the Cold War. Turkey in a very large part helped the US win the Gulf War: Part Uno. But somehow these guys aren’t going to be able to get along with the Europeans? Ha! The very Europeans they helped protect as a NATO member? What a joke!
So Plaid, what’s the real deal? I’m glad you asked. There is concern among many EU states that including a Muslim nation is going to increase the flow of Muslim people into the EU which may perpetuate a clash of cultures (look to cultural problems in France right now for your best examples of this). Some argue this increased flow of Muslims might also include a modicum of Muslim people who might be terrorists–thus it’s a security issue. There are other folks that think Turkey is too big with too many people and would wield too much power in the EU. Others think they are too poor and would be a strain on the EU. Still others fear an inflow of Turks that are going to ‘take my job!’
What the fuck ever.
Turkey deserves better. And as a moderate voice of Islam, as the only true Islamic democracy, and as a continued staunch ally of ‘the West’, the EU OUGHT to be kissing Turkey’s ass! Does Europe really want to be in a position of pissing off Turkey and having them turn around and embrace the Middle East? Or Russia? Or China? Wake up EU goobers!
And know this world watchers: the US is not happy about the European foot-dragging. The US would very much like to keep Turkey in the western camp. Watch for US pressure to mount on the side of the Turks in future stories about the EU.
Party in Plaid.
-PA
And its about time too dammit! What a bunch of goobers the EU members have become on the topic of 
I just wanted to talk about why this whole fiasco has happened. While EU entry has long enjoyed popular support by most Turks, the Europeans have been grinding them down, and as a result public opinion of the EU is growing more dismal by the day. Many Turks refer to the EU as the CU…which stands for the ‘Christian Union’…and the Plaid Avenger does believe that there is something to this interpretation.
March 28th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Horrific analysis. You don’t mention the Kurds once which is, of course, one of the main obstacles to the EU finally letting in Turkey. Turkey has an awful human rights record stretching back to their treatment of the Armenians in the early 20th century and leading up to their oppression of the Kurds for the last several decades.
March 29th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Hahahaha…Heito, you are the bomb! While you’re comments are usually refreshing and candid, you are simply off on this one. The blog is about why Turkey’s ascension into the EU has been delayed because of cultural underpinnings….it is not supposed to be a full history of the Republic, high-liting atrocities. The list of things which have stalled talks does not include the Armenian genocide or Kurdish repression. Both are important topics to consider, but not in the context of this particular blog. Turkey has made large strides on the Kurdish rights issue over the last decade, which was a precursor for the EU ascension talks to even begin. The main reason that talks fell apart last year was over the Cyprus issue. Its not my opinion; go look it up. The Plaid Avenger stands on principle that one of the main reasons for European foot-dragging is due to the cultural differences, Christian/Muslim thing. You don’t have to agree, but if you want to argue that Turkey shouldn’t be allowed in the EU because of the Armenian genocide of 1915, then what are your thoughts about Germany? I guess they should be kicked out of the EU too?
March 30th, 2007 at 10:00 am
You would think that the EU would have let Turkey in a long time ago. Turkey is a democracy, which the west loves. Ironic that they let the states that were formerly communist before letting in a democratic country, don’t you think? As far as I know, Turkey seems to be stable and has been stable far longer then many of the former soviet republics. Aren’t stable countries something the EU is definatly looking for?
March 30th, 2007 at 11:04 am
I would hardly call Turkey a “stable country” nor a “democratic” one. Just do some human rights organization searches on the ‘net. Cyprus is an issue, yes, but what does that have to do with your incessant argument regarding cultural bias on the part of the EU? You’ll have to give some evidence of that, aside from right-wing diatribes from politicians within the EU. Your Germany analogy is stupid. Does Germany imprison people for discussing the Holocaust as happens in Turkey. Not quite. You’re subscribing to some sort of Huntingtonian idea of a civilizational clash which is, of course, inane.
March 30th, 2007 at 11:13 am
I don’t subscribe to the Huntingtonain idea of a civilization clash, but many in Europe do. Those are the folks I’m making fun of. Are you actually so clueless that you think people in France and Austria don’t want to allow Turkish entry in the EU because they are so solely concerned with human rights issues? Grow up dude. Wake up and smell the Turkish coffee. Get your high school AP political science teacher to help you out.
March 30th, 2007 at 11:54 am
hahaha oh wow
March 30th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Hm, interestingly enough it ate most of my post (maybe it doesn’t like line breaks?), so here it is again: hahaha oh wow,
March 30th, 2007 at 11:58 am
lol, it ate my post again, and now I know why!
So here it is again:
hahaha oh wow
Boyer = win
On the “Germany doesn’t imprison people for talking about the holocaust” note, last I checked you can get thrown into jail in Germany for saying the Holocaust didn’t happen, or even that it wasn’t as bad as they say it was, and Nazi symbols are b& too. Dunno how relevant it is to this conversation, but it came to mind when I was reading the comments.
March 30th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
I have to agree w/ Boyer here…countries don’t actually care about global human rights, especially if they’re not the US. Look at China and Russia, who didn’t want to call the genocide in Rwanda a genocide. The fact is, the reasons for denying Turkey admission into the EU are not humanitarian. I’d suggest that the main reasons are racial/cultural: the white/European west versus the not-white/Middle Eastern turks.
@HV: wtf? Of course Turkey’s stable. You might not like the reasons they’re stable, but who in Turkey is going to overthrow the government? Nobody. Human-rights violations does NOT make you “unstable”. Political unrest and international intervention makes you unstable. You’re way off-base.
March 30th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Oh, give me a break Europe and Heito. Turkey has done more to help Europe than most European nations. The French don’t want Turkey in the EU because the French can’t police their Islamic population. And, if the French can’t do something that requires force, we know it is impossible. Oh wait, have the French ever won a fight?
Turkey is a mostly stable nation. They are as wealthy (or wealthier) as Spain and Eastern Europe which are dirt poor. Maybe the real reason that the EU doesn’t include Turkey is because by allowing Turkey into their lovely club they will tell the world that, Muslims are equal to Christians and not all of them are bad, evil, etc. The Turks are not the Saudi’s who produce more Islamic terrorist than any more nation, nor the crazy Iranians. Hell, Turkey even allows ALCOHOL and if you know anything about religion and alcohol, this is a big deal.
Turkey deserves to be in the EU. They are a European ally and American ally. And think about this, do we really want Turkey to form the MU (Muslim Union) with Iran and Persian Gulf and North African nations? What Europe is doing by not allowing Turkey in is re-creating the Roman Empire, Pitting it against the Persian Empire, and against the Chinese Empire. Do we really want this 3-way going on?
March 30th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Oh wait, have the French ever won a fight?
The French win a fight when:
A) They’re led or assisted by a non-Frenchman (Napolean, America, etc.)
B) They’re fighting against themselves (French revolution.)
If you consider their Islamic population to be French (well, they *do* live in France, so that counts enough) then yeah, they could win it.
March 30th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Vandeerjuice is way off base. The EU as an entity, and the same can be said for any of its member states, is not consistent in its protection of human rights. The fact that it lacks any coherent human rights policy, other than to generally condemn abuses, is the proof in the pudding. Furthermore, take a country like Sudan, in which the atrocities committed there by its own government were esentially an attempt to clear civilian land areas in order to accomodate and protect foreign oil interests. What foreign oil interests you ask? Only the UK and France, to name just two. To make an arguement that human rights abuses factors into this debate as a major reason for denying Turkey’s entry into the EU is too elementary. Boyer raises a good point with Cyprus, also an EU member. There is no way that the EU is going to accept Turkey given the trade issue between the two countries. The EU will protect its own first and foremost.
March 30th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/eu-turkey-relations/article-129678
This may help. Actual discourse on a subject requires an understanding of every facet of it. If you want to just fall back on “making fun” of the political right-wing of Europe, so be it. The issues are all clearly outlined on this highly useful site, issues which would be customary knowledge for anyone averring to know anything on the topic.
The issue of Cyprus several of you mentioned is very much an issue outside of any “cultural bias” which seems to be the flavour of the day in this discussion. Please post links and articles backing up your arguments. No serious scholar goes on simply maligning one’s discursive opponent without some sort of proof.
March 30th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
nah, it’s YOUR flavor of the day man; again, while an interesting topic, it’s not really directly tangible to the topic in the original article…
Please continue to gloat yourself as much as possible, no serious message board readers laugh without watching you back up your irrelevant platforms…
March 30th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Att: Anonymous Does Not Forgive
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2007/01/germany-backs-away-from-eu-wide.php
Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries: Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), the Czech Republic under section 261, France (Loi Gayssot), Germany (§ 130 (3) of the penal code) also the Auschwitzlüge law section 185, Lithuania, The Netherlands under articles 137c and 137e, Poland, Romania, Slovakia,and Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code). In addition, under Law 5710-1950 it is also illegal in Israel. Italy enacted a law against racial and sexual discrimination on January 25, 2007. [2] Even if it is commonly referred as the “Holocaust law” in the public debate, it does not actually contain direct references to the Holocaust and does not explicitly address its denial.
Many of these countries also have broader laws against libel or inciting racial hatred, as do a number of countries that do not specifically have laws against Holocaust denial, such as Canada and the United Kingdom. The Council of Europe’s 2003 Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cyber Crime, concerning the criminalisation of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems includes an article 6 titled Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity, though this does not have the status of law.
Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, a number (Austria, Germany, Romania and Slovakia) were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust, and many of these also ban other elements associated with Nazism, such as Nazi symbols. Additionally, scholars have pointed out that countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways, such as banning hate speech. In the words of D. Guttenplan, this is a split between the “common law countries of the US, Britain, and former British colonies from the civil law countries of continental Europe. In civil law countries the law is generally more proscriptive. Also under the civil law regime the judge acts more as an inquisitor, gathering and presenting evidence as well as interpreting it”
Many Holocaust deniers claim their work falls under a “universal right to free speech”, and see these laws as a confirmation of their own beliefs, arguing that the truth does not need to be legally enforced. Some people who do not deny that the Holocaust occurred nevertheless oppose such restrictions of free speech, including, despite her legal battle with David Irving, Deborah Lipstadt. In fact, most historians oppose such laws, including Raul Hillberg, Richard Evans and Pierre Vidal-Naquet. Other prominent opponents of the laws are Timothy Garton Ash, Christopher Hitchens, Peter Singer, and Noam Chomsky. An uproar resulted when Serge Thion used one of Chomsky’s essays without explicit permission as a foreword to a book of Holocaust denial essays
March 30th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
>>nah, it’s YOUR flavor of the day man; again, while an interesting topic, it’s not really directly tangible to the topic in the original article…
Please continue to gloat yourself as much as possible, no serious message board readers laugh without watching you back up your irrelevant platforms
March 30th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
This last post clearly illustrates that you are either unwilling or unable to engage in a discussion that extends beyond spurious declarations which you apparently can’t back up. I find your diatribe chilling considering. I believe that “no serious message board readers” would find it heartening to see you discussing a topic with such malevolence and disrespect.
March 30th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Heito, you have way too much time on your hands. Get a girlfriend….
March 30th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Okay Thurston Heito Vanderjuice Howell, III, we get that you like to speak as if you are in a grey poupon commercial. However, save yourself some time googling synonyms for GRE words, agree to disagree, and bury it. The serious message board readers are getting tired of this discussion. At this point, I would rather sit in a pool of my own precious bodily fluids than read another Heito fulmination.
March 30th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Again, the childishness, not to mention churlishness of your responses are pathetic. You would rather resort to name-calling and inanity than an actual discussion. How very very sad. If you ever do find those links to back up your argument though, I’d love to see them! I, for one, am actually interested in such subjects and open to debate and dialogue. If you’re looking for that here, friends, turn away quickly!
March 30th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
@HV:
Stop posting enormous entries w/ hyperlinks. You of all people should know that this is a cardinal sin of message board posting. Make your points and counter points made by others: don’t go on ridiculously long rants. Also, using hyperlinks is pointless: nobody will follow them.
Most importantly, this: the use of ostentatious vocabulary does not make you intelligent. You have made only one point, albeit repeatedly. “I, for one, am actually interested in such subjects and open to debate and dialogue”: no you’re not, you simply stick stubbornly to your proverbial guns.
March 30th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
I have never seen an academic blog where links were considered iniquitous. It is, of course, the only way one can back up an argument unless, of course, that isn’t the point.And stop hankering on about the way people conduct themselves linguistically. It sounds insipid. You say I am repetitive and unopen to dialogue. Yet you open your post with imperative wanking about not being involved in the dialogue anymore. Make up your mind, please.
March 30th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Hmm….as I said, your post here says nothing. This thread is destroyed, but in the future I would ask that we stop attacking each other (yes I admit to doing it too) and try to debate the issue. What I’m saying is that, if you make a good argument, just state your opinion and a few facts. Don’t expect people to go look it up, because you know that nobody will.
I stand firm in my comment about your vocabulary: I could just as easily decorate my sentences with advanced grammatical structure and high-level vocabulary, but my facts would be the same.
All I’m saying is this: let’s have some good discussion in the next post, and stay away from flaming each other.
March 30th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Oh…and did you just use wanking?
March 30th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
Heito, what serious scholar uses a message board to post their opinions. Get your own blog for that, this is just for comments on the Avenger’s thoughts.
March 30th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
This has gotten so far off the topic at hand. Unless you’re willing to start a new message board to this “netiquite”, I really wish you’d all drop it. I feel bad even making this post when cultural geography is really the topic at hand.
March 30th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
I believe this post brings to light an ongoing story that has seen very little print. I’m sure we will see increasing attention being paid to this story now that it has been brought to light.
March 30th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
It’s too bad there’s no good way of banning people like Heito from posting their “inane” comments here… And Heito, just so you know, starting your first comment with “Horrific analysis” is a great way to start a “discussion that extends beyond spurious declarations which you apparently can’t back up”. I’d love to see you try that approach on a date: “Horrific face. Hi, my name’s Heito. Nice to meet you!” No wonder you’re picking fights in a comments thread with Thesaurus.com and quick Google searches for your support. For the sake of everyone reading this, please stop posting here.
Thanks,
- Everyone
March 30th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Heito, I find it amusing that out of an article that is over 3,000 words, you chose a tiny piece of it(38 words) to anchor your whole argument off of. I just think that if you want the others to provide a “link”(which I really think is bulls***,look at some actual journals not some website), that you would try to find something that would actually hold in any debate. Yes there have been”historical human rights issues with Turkey, but what country hasnt had a Human Rights problem. Now as you are saying that you have never seen an academic blog where links were considered “iniquitous”
March 31st, 2007 at 12:01 am
(which according to dictionary.com means evil or sinful? you got me on that word! +10) I hardly belive that. I have never in my life been able to cite a website that isnt an accredited journal. The internet has led to many people haveing the least understanding of politics and world news than I have ever seen. I am in no way challenging your knowledge of worldly events but truthfully if your neighbor beats his kids, and owes your friend money, which are you more likely to care about? In this copntext the idea that the human rights is the headfront of the EU not letting Turkey in is a croc(that means impaired in case your online thesaurus was wrong.)
March 31st, 2007 at 8:55 am
In both press statement, on 1st March 2007 Thursday, and application to IHD (Human Rights Association) Headquarters; Lawyers of Abdullah Ocalan (leader of PKK, Kurdistan Workers� Party) claimed there are signs, which reached via analysis and tests on Ocalan�s hair, of poisoning. But there have been other instances of such behavior by Bush, and congressional Republicans and a good number of Democrats just rolled over. We’re not talking about what every President does at the start of his term in office: at his pleasure, he fires all of the old fed attorneys and fills all of the posts with his selections, and Congress traditionally rubber stamps his selections. Ocalan�s defence team stated that samples of hair had been analysed in a medical institution, whose centre is in Oslo. Combine all the spices together. Then rub over ribs generously until all ribs are covered. Cut up one lemon into slices and place slices on top of each rib. Put ribs into a zip lock bag one on top of each other, and let sit in refrigerator overnight 24 hrs.
When ready, take ribs out of bag. Remove lemon slices and place ribs in shallow pan. (Do not pile ribs on top of each other.)The medical institution carried out toxicological analysis and test on the samples of hair. The lawyers said the tests and analysis showed that level of chromium and strontium in their client�s hair is too high than normal.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:29 am
Heito is great, not only is he our nations first vocabulist, but he is our nations historian aswell. you should not get mad that he states firm, hard, juicy facts, and displays them along with words that are plump, round, soft and jiggly.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:41 am
Pardon me, sir. But is that Heito’s cranium, or did his neck defecate?
March 31st, 2007 at 11:45 am
oh, here is a link to back up the last statement.
Cheerio, good chaps. I’m off to have wank at Hahvahd University.
http://www.flyingsnail.com/Dahbud/images/shithead.jpg
March 31st, 2007 at 3:47 pm
I cannot respond to precipitous replys that vitiate the trenchant core of my posts with clear, and equivocal intentions.
Denying the economic impact of Turkey’s Capital Markets on world stability is a blatant attempt by jb to divert from his faulty logic. As a consequence of the economic liberalisation policies, implemented in Turkey since 1980s the Turkish capital markets , encompassing securities and other financial markets , have undergone significant transformation. Capital markets deregulation was undertaken in line with overall financial sector reform. The objectives of these reforms were to secure transparency, confidence and stability in the capital markets, to bring market discipline to State Economic Enterprises and strengthen the process of their restructuring, to contribute to the private sector’s more effective utilisation of capital markets, to develop new instruments institutions and markets to reduce costs of credit and fund allocation, to deepen the financial markets, to contribute the participation of the public at large in investment activity, and to reach standards of developed nations in financial structure and practice.
April 1st, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Wow Heito - this kind of flagrant violation contained in your last post could get a ’scholar’ kicked right off campus. Nothing like a little plagiarism to make your post appear original and insightful. Nice try dude.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:28 am
heito’s just doing this to piss everyone off. I don’t trust anyone who uses the word “precipitous” and then misspells the word “replies” in the same sentence. The best thing to do is ignore him and maybe he’ll go away.
If anyone’s interested in reading the original source of his word-for-word plagiarized response:
http://www.hmtokyo.jp/econoutlook.htm
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:55 am
What’s most entertaining about the plagiarized comment above is that it has nothing to do with his original post on the human rights issue. So not only did Heito blatantly steal someone else’s work, he is apparently too much of a dipshit to make sure it is germane to the conversation that he started.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:01 am
What is most entertaining is that I didn’t post it.
April 2nd, 2007 at 9:16 am
Either of the last two posts, that is. One would think I could spell my own forum name correctly. But yes, I do agree with your posts own plagiarized comments; clearly this is poor scholarship and a wan attempt by whoever posted it to put me in a bad light.
However, I still await replies to my earlier posts, a dialogue which could be quite stimulating and informative were it not for the vituperative vitriol exuded from others on the forum, clearly partisans of some sort of “plaid avenger” personality cult!
But enough with that; I’d rather engage in serious discussion so can exert no further effort on inanities and juvenile invective.
April 2nd, 2007 at 9:22 am
Please shutup. Please. Just stop.
April 2nd, 2007 at 10:02 am
For many reasons, I doubt it would be very difficult to put you “in a bad light” at this point. Perhaps you should consider retiring from this forum, since it is unlikely, no matter how convincing of an argument you could make on any issue, that anyone will take you seriously now. It is unfortunate but probably true, especially considering that you essentially cast the first stone by your second comment above (number 4 from March 30th). I do not understand why it is that you expect respect from people, or how you can decry petty attacks and name calling when you refer to someone else’s opinion above as “stupid”. You are playing silly games in this forum, along with a few of the other people (Frank Drebin?) listed above. In fact, I would not be the least bit surprised if you are one in the same.
May 1st, 2007 at 12:07 am
Why must people continue to bash Heito instead of respond to his arguments? I for one agree with him, Turkey does not belong in the EU. First, its not even in fucking Europe, its in Asia. They have human rights issues that are ingrained in the culture that are worse at the top. Their leaders continue to denounce Armenian genocide of 1915 and late 1890’s, those people killed were Christians, and they claim there is a serparation of church and state and they’ve reformed their ways? Yeah, right.
Maybe, instead of focusing on how a person responds to an argument, actually debate the topic, it’ll make you look a lot better and this off-tangent name-calling can be avoided all together.
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August 17th, 2007 at 6:50 am
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July 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am
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